Fehlerdiagnose: Gasannahme bricht weg

[Pinky]

Ja, das Video meinte ich. Da ist der Typ mit dem siffigen Handschuh

[didithekid]

Hallo,

kannst Du Dir erklären, warum bei Throttle = 4,11 Volt da MotorStop (statt MotorRun) steht?
Bei Throttle = 3,71 Volt war es noch MotorRun.
Da der zweite Hall-Kabelstrang offenbar defekt ist, kann die höhere Max Throttle-Spannung evtl. davon kommen, dass von den gemeinamen 5 Volt 'Versorgungsspannung für Hall-Sensoren und Gasgriff nichts mehr zum Motor fließt und jetzt eine höhere Spannung (alleine) am Gagriff-Hallsensor anliegt, die das throttle-Signal um 0,4 Volt in die Höhe treibt. Ich hoffe die programmierte throttle range reicht höher, als bis 4,11 Volt.

VG
Didi

[Pinky]

Nein, das kann ich nicht erklären. Hatte ja schon weiter oben erwähnt, dass mir die Throttle-Werte spansich vorkommen. Obwohl ich weiter den Gashahn voll aufgedreht habe, zeigte die App hier 0V an. Wurde also offenbar durch den Controller auf 0 gesetzt und ist keine direkte Übersetzung des Hebelzustandes.



Ich habe mittlerweile das Hinterrad ausgebaut und bin gerade dabei es zu zerlegen. Hallsensoren sind ebenfalls bestellt, mal sehen wie weit ich hier komme.
Momentan scheitere ich daran, die äußeren Kappen abzunehmen. Diese sind ja mit reichlich schrauben rund herum befestigt, die habe ich entfernt. Auf diversen Bildern von DavidSt kann man sehen, dass diese Kappen nur "blenden" sind. Dennoch habe ich schwierigkeiten sie abzubekommen. "Dahinterhebeln" ist nicht so einfach möglich. Auf beiden Seiten bin ich gescheitert mit den simplen mitteln die ich hier habe. Um nicht allzu viel zu verkratzen habe ich jetzt erstmal Feierabend gemacht.

Wie habt ihr die Kappen abbekommen?

[bob2.0]

Yes, I was planning to doing some more 'how to'. I was not in a rush until someone had a need. Maybe this is it.

But they are more tips so you can do it quicker and better. It's possible just to get going on it and I am sure do a good job.

But before taking apart let's deduce the problem.

I've offered my diagnostic approach. Everything mentioned is the fault I had, down to when it happened to me and what happened. Please follow the steps in the post #4 here.

If there is rust on a magnet, it swells and sticks out into the rotor.

If there is rubbing on a magnet, it will get hot then demagnetize.

When the magnet is not working, there is not the signal for the hall sensor.

Of course, it might simply be a Hall Sensor, but you can test that without removing the motor.

The reason this sounds like a demangetized magnet is because it works without load. If it was a Hall sensor failure, it would fail. It fails under load because the coils energize and oppose the magnet's field, so it drops to zero and then the Hall picks nothing up, then it reports the error.

[dominik]

Der Controller legt beim Autlearn die Grenzwerte für die Throttle Spannung fest. Ein übersteigen dieses Grenzwertes würde ein Throttle Error als Fehlermeldung bringen, die bei Stillstand des Rades wieder verschwindet.
Das passiert sowohl bei oberen als auch beim unteren Grenzwert. Der Controller misst den niedrigsten Throttle Wert und schlägt was drauf. Wenn der eingelernte Wert um 0,3V unterschritten wird >Throttle Error. Er misst den höchsten Wert und wenn der um 0,3V überschritten wird >Throttle Error.
Hab ich beides ausprobiert, beim Versuch den Leerlauf des Gasgriffs zu verkleinern.

Ich denke eher das der Controller einen Fehler bei den Halls feststellt und dann als Schutzmaßnahme Throttle auf 0 zieht.

Die Abdeckung habe ich bei meinem QS-Motor nur mit dem großen Gummihammer und schlägen auf das gegenüberliegende Wellenende , sowie unterbauen des Felgenrandes, runter bekommen.
Die Dichtmasse klebt doch recht gut.

[bob2.0]

Der Controller legt beim Autlearn die Grenzwerte für die Throttle Spannung fest. Ein übersteigen dieses Grenzwertes würde ein Throttle Error als Fehlermeldung bringen, die bei Stillstand des Rades wieder verschwindet.
Das passiert sowohl bei oberen als auch beim unteren Grenzwert. Der Controller misst den niedrigsten Throttle Wert und schlägt was drauf. Wenn der eingelernte Wert um 0,3V unterschritten wird >Throttle Error. Er misst den höchsten Wert und wenn der um 0,3V überschritten wird >Throttle Error.
Hab ich beides ausprobiert, beim Versuch den Leerlauf des Gasgriffs zu verkleinern.

Ich denke eher das der Controller einen Fehler bei den Halls feststellt und dann als Schutzmaßnahme Throttle auf 0 zieht.

Die Abdeckung habe ich bei meinem QS-Motor nur mit dem großen Gummihammer und schlägen auf das gegenüberliegende Wellenende , sowie unterbauen des Felgenrandes, runter bekommen.
Die Dichtmasse klebt doch recht gut.

If the 'motor' error symbol shows, then I don't see how it would be that, which is why I asked if it was showing.

To remove the hub, unscrew the 12 screws on the cable side and use a bearing splitter to push the axle straight out from the other side, with the parts of the splitter positioned behind the brake disc.

Forget about trying to separate the cover plate and dissect the seal, don't bother. Leave the plate on, let it come off with the hub and axle. All I did was mark and scratch the mating surfaces to no effect at all trying to do that the first time, and leaving the plate in place helps keep the axle aligned and not rubbing on the magnets (if you use the guide bolts I show here). Press it straight out, and it tears the sealant no problem.

I recommend supporting the wheel either side on something substantial, you need around 200mm clearance underneath, I used some encyclopedias I had and wrapped them in pallet wrap to keep them clean.

I recommend getting some long coach bolts that will help keep everything straight and not fly around. 4 is enough to stabilise it.

Then, flip it over and press it out. Put something soft underneath, I used a transit blanket (see the grey blanket underneath in the last photo), and the axle can then drop softly on to it.

Having done this 3 times now, I recommend wrapping up the cable ends as soon as you disconnect it from the controller. That keeps the connectors safe and makes it easier to withdraw and re-install the cable, as well as protect them. You can see in the photo that the cable ends are wrapped up in pallet wrap.

Keeping the plate aligned with the bolts and pressing it out from the other side is very controlled and simple. There is no drama and no difficult steps if you do it like this.

[jeff-jordan]

Thank you Bob! Nice and controlled way to push stator and rim apart.

Any hints on reassembling the motor?
I guess it won't be a good idea just to let the stator snap uncontrolled into the rim with the magnets.

[bob2.0]

Thank you Bob! Nice and controlled way to push stator and rim apart.

Any hints on reassembling the motor?
I guess it won't be a good idea just to let the stator snap uncontrolled into the rim with the magnets.

Yes. That in reverse.

Bring the axle/hub under the wheel and guide the top of the axle through the other cover plate by gripping the axle in one had while inserting the guide bolts (note; the bearing may either stay in the cover plate or stay on the axle, doesn't really matter, it went different ways on different occasions for me).

[Also, I would say best to replace the seal at this stage. Use red rubber grease to lube up the seal and the shaft to get a good sliding seal on it. The bearing is easy to replace on that side, if you like. But not for the other side as it requires motor dismantling as the phase wires have to be disassembled. Use a 3 armed puller to pull the cover plate off the cable side, if you want to swap that seal out.]

The tricky bit is cleaning off all the old sealant, then adding new sealant and manoeuvering the axle/hub without smearing that freshly laid sealant.

(You only need a tiny amount. I put way too much on the first time and it was endless getting it off again. I made a spreader tool to wipe off excess the next time.)

It's a bit of muscle effort to hold the axle one end with one hand and guide the other through the (now) upper plate. Then you have to thread those guide bolts in place again, one handed hold on the axle, and the other the bolts. It is fiddly, but worth doing as it makes everything else so easy.

The bearing puller remains in place, with an inch allowance for the axle to come out to.

You want it so that there is just enough magnetic pull that it lifts up and contacts the puller tip, without falling back again.

You can then ease back the puller and the hub slowly, and majestically, rises up into the hub by the magnetic force.

Once the puller goes loose, the bearing is home on the upper place, remove the puller and flip the wheel.

Then you have to tap the bearing back into place. I cannot say I did this the best way. Perhaps, start with striking the axle flat directly, but only for a coarse location when the bearing is still not in very far.

Once it is further home, you have to cover the central shoulder with some rubber or something like that to protect it, then hammer directly down using a drift tool, tapping around to get it evenly re-bedded.

When the gap is a few mm, and before the sealant gets all smeared around, then refit the screws and this will centralise the plate.

Then tap a bit more, gradually tighten the screws, as the bearing relocates.

When the gap is closed up, do a bit more tapping to take off any residual strain in the screws, and tighten the screws to 3 Nm, then 4, then 5, going around in an even pattern.

I'll write this out again sometime soon, with a bit more detail and with pictures. But in case someone has a go to do this before I write it, this may be useful summary.

PS. Above is for my 2.0 motor. The later motor might vary.

[jeff-jordan]

Ahhh, now I think I understood how it works .

So the tricks are to use the guide bolts (m3 ? m4 ?) and the "puller" (as a push-limiter or push-controller) to tame the magnetic force in the way that it reassembles it all.

[bob2.0]

Ahhh, now I think I understood how it works .

So the tricks are to use the guide bolts (m3 ? m4 ?) and the "puller" (as a push-limiter or push-controller) to tame the magnetic force in the way that it reassembles it all.

Yes, it just keeps it all together, in line, in the right place.

I have watched it coming out and going in, and the poles don't even touch the magnets.

I have a video of it, I'll see if I can post it.

M5.